Steve Wynn (Part 1)

There are few artists who speak to me like Steve Wynn. Ever since that fateful day in 1985 when I picked up his old band The Dream Syndicate's The Days of Wine & Roses on vinyl at Wee Three Records in Pottstown, Pa I have been an admirer and student. His piercing lyrics that combine poetry, pulp and the everyday plight of the everyman have been a part of my landscape my entire adult life. I realized one of my ambitions as a music journalist recently when Steve agreed to indulge me a lengthy set of questions covering his entire career. Following are his thoughts on The Dream Syndicate, his solo career, the recording process, influences and romance.

Trout: First of all thanks for agreeing to do this. Your music has meant a great deal to me for 20 years and it’s an honor and a true reward to be able to interview you. You are about to celebrate your 25th year in music. I recently read an article naming the Velvet Underground, Stooges, REM and Dream Syndicate as the foundation of contemporary alternative music. What do you think?

Steve Wynn:I like the sound of it. Look, I don't think we had the mass impact of those other bands but I do think we were some kind of link between the cool, unknown bands that had come before and the cool, slightly less unknown bands that followed. We were doing something that most other underground bands weren't doing in 1981--playing guitars, playing long songs, playing feedback, freaking out and at the same time playing songs that were based in traditional rock/pop/folk. It was a very simple idea but since nobody else was doing it, a lot of people paid attention. Our feeling was always, "if someone else was making the music we wanted to hear, we wouldn't have to do it."

T: Similarly, your solo career is 15 this year, with all of this music behind, what sort of weight do you feel entering the studio or hitting the road?

SW: I love making records and playing shows more than ever. I have just as much enthusiasm as ever for making music but at the same time, the process feels more effortless and the things I want to hear seem more easily attainable. That's fun and also opens up more possibility. As far as "weight" or "pressure," I just try to make myself happy and I figure the rest will take care of itself..

T: You were born in Los Angeles and now reside in New York City. Does this color your music?:

SW: Absolutely! You know how some people are Anglophiles? I've always been the same way about New York (is there a word for that? Manhattaphile?). I loved the music and the literature and the movies much more than most things out of LA or the UK. Every time I came here on tour, I immediately felt at home and hated to leave. And since I moved here in 1994, I've written more (and, I feel, better) songs than ever before. The biggest difference? Walking, not driving. I really feel like all you have to do to write a song is to walk out the door and keep your ears and eyes open. Something you'll hear or something that you see or the rhythm of your walk or the way the light hits the sidewalk--any of those things!--will give you a song..

T: I have always wondered, how did Chris D come to produce Wine and Roses? Right after that he produced the Misfits' Walk Among Us (a classic in its own right). Do you miss the days when Bands like the Misfits and the Dream Syndicate could have existed in the same realm? Things are so very specific now.

'SW: Chris was the main guy behind Ruby Records, a custom label at Slash. He pretty much found bands he liked and then produced them himself on a minuscule budget. I guess he was a fan of ours and I was very much into what he had done with the Gun Club, so it seemed to make sense. And I'm glad it worked out that way--Chris did very little in the studio. He just let us do our thing and I think that was the best way to produce the band. Most producers would have tried to tone us down or smooth out the guitars or--horror or horrors--made us tune! I do remember that Chris had a problem with the cacophonous ending to "Until Lately," but he finally said, "hey, it's your record. If you want to make people turn it off, it's your business."
The funny thing about what you say regarding diverse bands existing together is that I remember the exact opposite. I remember that the underground scene was very, very divided. Rockabilly, hardcore punk, goth music, new romantic--it was all so subdivided and there were few bands that were pushing beyond their genre. I think only Gun Club, the dBs, The Fall, Fleshtones, Orange Juice and a few others were daring to be impossible to categorize

T: With the Medicine Show you learned a tough lesson about fickle audiences. How did you proceed from that point? Do you feel now you have an audience that will accept your work pretty much across the board? It was a shock and disappointment to see how much our US audience and critics focused on the budget, time spent on the record and jump to a major label rather than the music itself. It was my first taste of backlash. But then we went over to England (and Europe in general) and the record was received as the best thing in years. It was amazing--only months after being told I dropped the ball I was being told I made a masterpiece. Well, that taught me early on that you shouldn't trust anyone other than yourself. If you believe someone when they tell you that you're good, you have to believe them when they tell you're bad. And who needs that? I do feel that, at this point, I have wonderful and loyal fans who expect that I will change from record to record.

T: Speaking of Medicine Show, I think it’s a great record, second only to Wine & Roses, but written about far less. Two recurring symbols emerge on that record, guns and fire. Explain.?:

SW: We were getting heavily into the American Gothic style of music and writing. The influence of Faulkner, Flannery O' Connor and Neil Young combined with six months of touring and seeing the WHOLE country, miles and miles of highway and small towns all took us out of the LA/NYC Center Of the Universe sensibility and into a music that reflected Wide Open Spaces and the fear and dread that hides out there in those spaces.

T: First you were compared to Lou Reed, then Neil Young. Do you feel there are now "Steve Wynn to listeners" out there?:

SW: Ha ha ha. I would hope so--otherwise they wouldn't know how to find my records. But don't worry--I never refer to myself in the third person.

T: Out of the Grey in my opinion produced three of your all time classics, “Now I Ride Alone”, “Boston”, and the absolutely gorgeous “You Can’t Forget”. In what light do you see that record now? What did the inscription on the vinyl ‘Exile on Vine Street’ mean?:

SW: Well, it seemed that after Medicine Show, we had dropped a little bit below the radar, at least in the US. So rather than the Everybody's Watching Us syndrome of Medicine Show (which, strangely enough, caused us to get more outside and more repellent), we felt like we were making music in a vacuum. We had just been bought out of our A&M contract and were financing the record ourselves at Eldorado Studios on Vine Street (hence the inscription). I do feel that defiance and optimism in the face of dark times wasn't our strongest suit at the time and, to be honest, it's not one of my favorite records although I still play "Boston" all the time..

T: You recorded Ghost Stories with Eliot Mazer, who off the top of my head has produced Neil Young’s Harvest and Tonight’s the Night, recorded the Last Waltz, and Frank Sinatra. How did he come to produce the Dream Syndicate’s studio swan song? What was the atmosphere at the time within the band?

SW :Elliot recorded Frank Sinatra? I had no idea. Well, I was a big fan of the things he had done with Neil Young as well as Cheap Thrills by Big Brother and the Holding Company and I was very excited to work with him. He's one of those producers like Jim Dickinson whose greatest skill is getting an emotional performance and creating an intense vibe. And that was good for us at the time since I was coming off of a very debilitating breakup and there was a lot of alcohol and drugs in the band at the time. We were all friends and we were playing together with an incredible intensity but it wasn't a pretty time emotionally and I love that you can hear that darkness on the record..

T:From what I can tell from what I have read you had a bit of a tough time between Ghost Stories and your solo debut Kerosene Man. Is that evidenced in the record? It seems to be pretty panoramic both addressing personal stuff (“Tears Won’t Help”, “Killing Time”, “Carolyn”) and professional issues (the masterful “Younger”) and even political stuff (“Anthem”). Accurate?

T: Kerosene Man is also a quite eclectic piece. What were you listening to at the time? As a solo artist employing session people as opposed to being part of a unit, was it a tough transition to be the boss? Do you tend to be collaborative or are your records still a group process?.

SW: My first couple of solo records are still the only real "solo" records I have ever done, as far as assembling a group of studio musicians and really Producing the event. Since then, I have just made records with preexisting bands or people I had been playing with for years. So, the records tend to be more collaborative than records where I am "the boss." What was I listening to at the time? Can't remember although I do remember taking some inspiration from things that Bob Mould and Lloyd Cole were doing, largely become they had been in bands and made a good transition to being solo and that was reassuring..

T: Mark Romanek directed the video for “Carolyn”. Let’s make him direct either the George Jones or Gram Parsons biopics. I’ll give you co –writing credit and a small percentage of the profits.

SW: Good idea! Man, that's a great video. He was starting out and I was shown a reel of his with videos by Michael McDonald and Robyn Hitchcock. I think that was all he had done at that point. But the stuff was great and he was affordable because he was starting out. The funny thing is that i ran into him in midtown a few years ago and we had a good conversation. I followed up with an email letting him know that I would love to have him do another video for me sometime to which he replied that his manager only allowed him to do one "low budget" video a year and he had already hit his quota with a Sonic Youth video. Sonic Youth! THAT was low budget for him at that point. Too bad--I still am blown away by everything he does.

T: I have listened to your vocal style evolve over the years, from Dramatic (“Bullet With My Name On It”, “Tears Won’t help”) to a more comfortable yet emotive style. Do you feel you grew into your voice?

SW: Yeah, I actually enjoy singing as much as any other thing I do. I had never sung lead vocals in a band before the Dream Syndicate and I kinda learned on the job. I think I'm still finding out things I can do. And, more important, things I can't or shouldn't attempt to do.

T: How did “Drag” end up on Baywatch? Dazzling Display seems to be the least represented on What I Did When My Band Broke Up (his recently released collection of his best solo work). Is there a reason for that?

SW: I have no idea but it sure did pay my rent for a few years. Mark Linkous of Sparklehorse was the one who told me about it and I didn't believe him until the checks started rolling in. I actually like Dazzling Display even though it's less ME than anything I've ever done. But it was the biggest budget I've had outside of Medicine Show and I just wanted to try everything. It was a really fun record to make. But I don't think it has my strongest songs and there was just better stuff to put on the compilation. I guess that record's just more about production and playfulness and I enjoy it as a whole but not for any one particular song.

T: Fluorescent seemed to be a giant leap forward stylistically. A bit more country and a bit world-wearier. Is that the case? Or did you perhaps see it as a concept record kind of thing? “Carelessly” is one of your finest songs ever. Do you make it sometimes sound like you are saying “callously” on purpose?

SW: Thanks for the kind words about "Carelessly." It's one of my favorite things I've ever recorded. I've heard other people say that the hook made them think I was saying "Careless Lee." Maybe I should work on my diction. Anyway, like a lot of my favorite stuff, it wasn't meant to be a record--just a two day session to get a bunch of new songs on tape in a room with a bunch of friends and old bandmates. I guess I though I would make the "real" album later but when we heard the tapes, all of the people involved knew that we had captured something complete in itself. I think it was the easiest, most natural thing I had recorded up to that point.

T: Melting in the Dark seems to be a return to the rave-up/throw-down sound of Ghost Stories, “Why” almost veers into metal (in a good way). At this point looking over your records I have to ask, do you get a concept and then go with it? Pick a style and run or is a solo record (as I suspect) a state of the union address for the artist? You reference “I am the Cosmos”by the late Chris Bell at the end of “Shelly’s Blues pt 2”. Do you and I have the same exact record collection?

SW: Did you get that Chris Bell reference on your own or did you just read about it in the liner notes? If it's the former, then you're the first. I love putting little things like that in my records and see if anyone picks up on them. I had spent a bunch of years intentionally NOT making a record that sounded like the Dream Syndicate and finally decided to go back and mine old territory. And I was a huge fan of Come's Eleven Eleven record and heard they wanted to work with me so everything fell into place. Man, they were an amazing band and I actually wrote all the songs FOR the session--songs I knew that Come could play easily and with intensity. We only rehearsed for two days and spent four days in the studio. That was the concept. A record with Come. And it's one of my favorite things I've done--I really want to do a reissue of it sometime soon.

T: Sweetness & Light is also underrepresented on What I Did When My Band Broke Up. Reason? “Black Magic” is another favorite of mine. You seem to cram everything you love about music into four minutes and twenty-two seconds. Here’s a really high compliment: I could hear the Band doing this on one of their first 3 records. It also features one of my favorite of your record covers. I remember thinking “I hope that’s not his last record but if it is, what a brilliant cover.”

SW: That photo was taken on a roadside just outside of Munich. I brought the lollipop over from Times Square because I thought it would look good on a record cover. And I was doing a lot of work with photographer Guy Kokken--he's amazing. I should do something with him again soon. Anyway, depending upon when you talk to me, I'm either not a big fan of that album or kinda charmed by it. The truth? I had started dating my drummer Linda Pitmon and just wanted a new record so we could go back on the road together. I think the record would have been better if I had waited another few months. But, in general, I'd rather make a record with too little thought than too much.

T: My Midnight to me represents a return of sorts to the eclectic spirit of Kerosene Man and in my opinion was your strongest set of songs since that record. How do you see it? Also, the band seems to be with you in a way that I hadn’t heard since The Dream Syndicate, which is really evidenced in “Cats & Dogs”. Was that the case?

SW: Well, it was an AMAZING band and I was happy with the material and we had the budget to do it in a really nice studio (Water Music in Hoboken) with a really great producer/engineer (John Agnello) so everything was in our favor. I really like that album and thought it was funny when people called Here Come the Miracles and Static Transmission my 'comeback' records since I thought that My Midnight was actually the one where I got it all together. But the US record label went under four weeks after the record came out and it kinda got lost over here. But it was just the right blend of darker sounds and fun, giddy performances (we had a blast making it) and it feels very natural which is usually very important for me

T: Here Come the Miracles: Just where in the hell do you get off recording such a great record? Over 2 discs you explore every aspect of your music, come up with some new angles and add some bona fide classics to your oeuvre (“Sustain”, There will Come a Day”, “Morningside Heights”, Good and Bad”). You better explain yourself.

SW: The thing about that record is that it's not only my favorite thing I've ever done but it was also the easiest thing I've ever done. It was fun and effortless and quick and every decision made by everyone involved with the record was the right one. I remember around midnight on the tenth and final day of the session, I had to come up with a sequence quickly so that Craig Schumacher could put together a CD of rough mixes to listen to in the following weeks. When I saw that there were too many songs for a single disc, I quickly put together sequences for two different discs. And that became the final sequence. Now I have spent WEEKS working out sequences but that one just came in about ten minutes. And there was no title for the opening song or for the album and I had to come up with something for him to type out on the inlay sheet of the rough mix CD. I gave it about a minute's thought and wrote down "Here Come the Miracles." And, again, I often spend WEEKS trying to come up with a title. That's the way it was with that record. I wish it was that way every time. But it wasn't that easy or obvious at the start. I had that weird, freaky creative itch where I knew I wanted to do something different, something special but I had no idea what it was. I figured that the first step would be to record away from home in an unusual setting. I was talking to Howe Gelb after our London show that year and he suggested Wavelab in Tucson, where they made all of their records. I got in touch with Craig and the price was less than half what I would have paid in New York so I figured it was worth the risk--at the very least I would get some b-sides. I remember talking to Linda on the flight to Tucson and saying "Why are we flying across the country to make a record when there are so many good studios close to home?" and she said "it's a little late to be asking that question." But with "Miracles" everything happened for a reason.

T: You followed that with Static Transmission, Which just plain rocks. After the epic Robert Altman-esque Here Come the Miracles was it necessary to do something lean and mean?

SW: Actually, it was the first time since I started making records where I set out to repeat what I had done on the previous record. I was so happy with "Miracles" and Wavelab and Tucson and Craig that I just figured I would do it all again. So we went out there again--me and Linda and Dave DeCastro and Chris Cacavas as well as Jason Victor who had been in the live band for two years. And we started eating the same foods and making the same jokes and going through the same rituals and--lo and behold--it didn't work in the same way. We got rid of all of our preconceptions and made a darker, weirder, more melancholy version of "Miracles." It fit in with the previous record but it was definitely different. Sadder, more disturbed, crankier--all befitting the simple fact that "Miracles" was pre-9/11 and made in the Clinton era and "Static" was post-9/11 and made under Bush. To me, that explains everything.

T: Why is your band called The Miracle 3?

SW: I decided that I wanted a band name for the simple reason that I didn't want people to think my show was going to be solo acoustic or that I was a singer/songwriter. You know--the Crazy Horse or Bad Seeds thing where you know the show is built around a particular singer/songwriter but where you know he is going to mix it up with a band every night. Anyway, I had the idea but not the band name so I figured I would have a name that would also draw attention to the album I was promoting and I thought I would change the band name from album to album. But it was a good name and it just stuck.

T: You recently released a compilation of your solo work entitled What I Did After My Band Broke Up. What was the process or criteria for inclusion in the collection? Does the title offer a clue for what’s inside?

SW: I just didn't want something self-important or pretentious and I was joking around and said, "it should be a little bit self-deprecating, you know, something like 'What I Did After My Band Broke Up." Just a joke. But it sounded good when I said it and that was good enough for me. Look, I have been making solo albums much longer than I was with the Dream Syndicate and the records are just better. That's a fact. So, it was self-deprecating and defiant at the same time. And it was funny. Can't discount 'funny."

T: You also just released Visitation Rights a rather stately, elegiac reworking of some of your songs for solo piano. I am particularly struck by how successful this turned out. Especially on “Drought”. What motivated this approach to your songs? On “For All I Care” you have a little Nick Cave in your voice. Do you hear it?

SW: well, Greg, you know I'm a fan. But I never get compared to him. Which I guess is a good thing. But I'm a fan of the great lineage of "bad" singers like Dylan, Neil Young, Nick Cave, Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits. They're all much more interesting than singers who are 'technically' superior.

T: Tell me a little about your forthcoming "tick....tick....tick" (note: Steve and I extensively deconstruct tick...tick...tick... in part two of this interview)

SW: You mean the final chapter of the "desert trilogy?" I kept the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' philosophy and went back to Tucson. And I recorded the record with Linda, Jason and Dave--I have played more shows with this band than any lineup I've ever had, Dream Syndicate included. So I wrote a bunch of songs that felt like they would work for this band and just tried to keep it as raw and live as possible. And it worked. It sounds pretty much like what you would hear at a show even though there are lots of interesting touches here and there. Originally I intended to avoid keyboards but we ended up doing a few piano and organ touches, although Chris Cacavas said he would punch us for every keyboard note on the album. Ouch.

T: Where do you fit in the world of music these days?

SW: I write songs that I like, record them with people I like and then find people out there who like what I do. It's that simple, I guess. My main goal with every record--besides making a record that I would want to listen to--is for nobody to lose money and to do well enough to make another record a year or two later. The nice thing about the internet is that you can find the people around the world who would want to hear what you do. And, of course, there's no substitute for touring.

T: Looking over your career, you are second only to Bryan Ferry when it comes to interesting songs you pick to cover. Dylan, Parsons, Tommy James, Fogarty, Eitzel, Springsteen, Sonic Youth, Lee Hazlewood, Donovan…..the list goes on. What does it mean to you to cover a song? Any that you would like to cover that you haven’t yet? Perhaps we could pick 5 and hold a contest at MagnaPhone and my readers pick the ones they want to hear.
My suggestions
:Come on baby, Let’s Go Downtown-Neil Young
So like Candy-Elvis Costello
A duet with Neko Case on Johnny Cash’s Good Thing Gone Bad
When I Paint my Masterpiece or When the Night Comes Falling from the Sky-Bob Dylan
Too Long-Quicksilver Messenger Service
Goin' Back or Old Blue-Byrds
You Dont Know My Name-Kinks

SW: Hey, that's a good idea. Go ahead and ask your readers. I'm thinking of doing an all covers CD, at least for a limited edition release. You've named some of my favorites there so maybe I'll do a few of those. I bet they'd love "When I Paint My Masterpiece" in Rome.

T: I could probably think of a million more. What was the last record you listened to?

SW: A collection of recordings by Lucille Bogan. Absolutely nasty stuff--you can't believe the stuff she was singing about in the 30s.

T: What is your favorite record this year (2005)? Film?:

SW: I love the LCD Soundsystems record. I'd love to make a record like that. As far as film goes I thought that Palindromes was great, inventive and pretty daring.

T: Anything else we should/need to know about Steve Wynn?:

SW: That the Yankees are down 5-4 to the Red Sox in the fifth inning and I think I should pay attention to the game.

Keep an eye on this spot for part two with my interview with Steve Wynn, where we delve into tick...tick...tick...at length, discuss film, furthur explore the idea of a covers record and see what Steve has been up to in 2006.

Send all ideas for the covers record to: Trout@Magnaphonemagazine.com

Check out Steve Wynn's site here

Read my piece on the Dream Syndicate's The Days of Wine and Roses here